Pewna Adriatica - czy warto?

[Grizlob 15]

Witam wszystkich. Jestem tu nowy, uznałem to forum za w pełni kompetentne. Dlatego mam do was pewne pytanie.

 

U jubilera w moim mieście jest promocja na zegarki (odejmują 18% vatu).

 

Znalazłem tam interesującą mnie Adriatice. Jest to automat, nie wiem jednak jaki to mechanizm, gdyż sprzedawcy zazwyczaj nie mają o tym pojęcia.

 

Wygląda ona tak:

http://www.zegarek.net/zegarki/adriatica/zegarek_adriatica_A8123.5232A.html

 

KOSZTUJE ONA 507zł

 

I tu pytanie - czy warto?!

 

Co do wyglądu - koperta jest dość gruba - czy wszystkie automaty muszą mieć taką grubość?

 

 

 

Skłaniam się coraz bardziej ku Festinie f16235/f

Takiej jak tu: http://allegro.pl/item1059887200_zegarek_festina_16235_nowe_kolory_od_maxtime.html

 

Czy to szwajcarski zegarek? Jakosc podobna do Adriatici? Pomijając że tamta to automat?

To kwarc, ale nieco mniej elegancki i bardziej uniwersalny.

 

 

 

 

Posiadam 500zł i poszukuję nowego zegarka, jesli macie jakieś lepsze propozycje to proszę dzielcie się nimi.

Zalezy mi na tym, aby miał chociaż częściowo szwajcarskie pochodzenie.

 

 

Proszę o wyczerpujące odpowiedzi na moje pytania.

 

Z góry dziękuję.

 

Artur.

[Gość Classified]

nie wiem jednak jaki to mechanizm, gdyż sprzedawcy zazwyczaj nie mają o tym pojęcia.

Sam sobie odpowiedziałes w linku który wstawiłeś do zegarka. Masz tam napisane wyraźnie: Claro 888.

 

Co do mechanizmu polecam to:

Claro-Semag

History of Claro-Semag

In 1961, George J. von Burg founded CLARO Watch S.A. in Bienne, Switzerland for the finishing of pin lever mechanical movements and assembly of complete watches under various brands. He then bought SEMAG, a manufacturer of ebauches and movement parts. Semag's calibres bore the designation 'ES'. They were mostly hand-winding and finished to a variety of specifications from 1 jewel pin-lever to 17 jewel jewelled-lever. Some examples may be seen on Christoph Lorenz's movement database:

http://www.christophlorenz.de/watch/movements/s/semag/semag_es_95.php?l=en

http://www.christophlorenz.de/watch/movements/unknown/unknown_swiss_parts_kienzle.php?l=en

http://www.christophlorenz.de/watch/movements/p/pg_time/pg_time_e355.php?l=en

A search of Roland Ranfft's movement database for 'Claro' shows several Ronda calibres, both pin- and jewelled-lever.

These two references contrast the activities of Semag (movement maker) and Claro (movement finisher). However complete watches bearing the 'SEMAG' brand have been made, including one with what appear to be a Semag-finished A. Schild calibre.

Von Burg also established Swiss Ebauches Ltd, Hong Kong, for the finishing of Semag movements and possibly other lower-grade Swiss movements for the Asian market. Swiss Ebauches should not be confused with Technica Swiss Ebauches.

There are other Far Eastern connections in the Claro-Semag story. During the 1970s, some Sea-Gull watches were made with what seems to be an early calibre ES with 19 jewels and a pin-lever escapement. Whether these were assembled in Tianjin, or by Sea-Gull's Hong Kong partners is unknown. The making of pin-levers seems inconsistent with Tianjin Watch Factory's other activities in this period. In North Korea, possibly in the 1980s, 'Peony Mountain' watches were made with a 17 jewel jewelled-lever movement identical to a later version of the ES.

In the 1980s, Claro-Semag began production of quartz movements. Recently they were bought by international fashion-watch brand Fossil, who also own the Zodiac brand of Swiss watches.

 

The new calibre CL-888

 

The following is quoted from 'Isthmus', the Seiko Forum Moderator at Watchuseek.com.

"Claro-Semag is Fossil's Switzerland based in-house mechanical movement 'manufacturer'. They produce a movement called the CL-888 which is used in Fossil's Zodiac Oceanaire divers, several other Fossils and is also sold to other brands. The watches are solid and most have reported nice solid performance from their movements.

"However a few eagle eyed tinkerers have also reported that the movement is the same movement as the Chinese Tianjin ST16. Now Tianjin Sea-Gull is about the most respected Chinese brand at the moment... this particular movement does a good job of integrating some of the better ideas of several movements out there.

"The thing is that the CL-888 only differs from the ST16 in its finishing. Since most likely that finishing is performed in Switzerland, by someone getting paid swiss wages, it is quite likely that that is what pushes the value of the Swiss part of the watch past the magic 50% mark. The end result is that Fossil is able to use a Chinese movement in a (very nice) watch and legally call it Swiss. I have a feeling that much of the case work is probably achieved in similar fashion, thus allowing them to write Swiss Made on the dial."

http://forums.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=130834&highlight=Claro

 

While the CL-888 is undoubtedly a 'Swiss Movement' under the law, some watch enthusiasts have been concerned by the possibility of a Chinese designed, Chinese built ebauche at the core of the movement. To counter this there have been some counter-claims to the effect that the design and all the parts originate in Switzerland.

One claim is that Claro-Semag, in the 1960s, was building this movement and selling it in Hong Kong, and the Chinese have subsequently copied the design. This begs the question as to why Sea-Gull waited until 1997 to first produce their 'copy'. This story also seems less likely in light of the fact that the auto-winding mechanism employed in the ST16 and CL-888 was patented by Seiko, and the patent remained in force until the 1970s. Thus Claro-Semag could only have built this movement if they had a license agreement with Seiko to use the Japanese technology. Regarding known Semag calibres of that period:

- The ES hand-wind calibres differ in every possible detail from the CL-888.

- There was a 'SEMAG'-branded watch made in the 1960s with a 25 jewel automatic movement of unknown designation which appears to have an indirect-seconds train layout very similar to the CL-888, however the plates are a noticeably different shape (in fact the CL-888 and ST16 most closly resemble a Citizen design from 1963!) ...and of course the auto-winding mechanism is completely different.

Another story is that the CL-888 is a resurrection of the Zenith 70 series, which was a Schild base calibre with a proprietory Zenith auto-winding mechanism. Not only does the Zenith 70 have a fundamentally different layout to the CL-888, but the Zenith winding mechanism is nothing like the system used in the CL-888.

 

za: http://www.mywatch.gr/index.php?topic=3353.0

 

 

A tutaj masz recenzję Claro 888:

 

The Elusive Claro-Semag CL888 Movement Nov 11, 2007 - 06:15 PM

 

The Elusive Claro-Semag CL888 Automatic Movement

By Anthony Young

 

One of the more obscure and enigmatic automatic watch movements today is the Claro-Semag CL888 used in a number of Swiss watch brands. One of those brands is Zodiac. Today, Zodiac is owned by Fossil, based in Richardson, Texas. Fossil wanted a distinctly Swiss brand to add to its list of brands, and all Zodiac operations remain in Switzerland. Under Fossil?s management, Zodiac now has a prominent retail and internet worldwide presence.

 

The majority of Zodiac?s watches are powered by Ronda quartz movements made in Lausen, Switzerland. Ronda was founded in 1946 initially making watch movement parts. It progressed into ebauche manufacture and finally complete mechanical movements until deciding to switch over to quartz movement manufacture in the mid-1970s. Today, Ronda manufactures quartz movements exclusively. If Ronda offered mechanical movements, no doubt Zodiac would use them.

 

There have been a number of watch forum postings regarding the CL888. One posting speculated the CL888 is not Swiss but is a clone of an Asian movement with upgraded parts. TimeZone member James Enloe, owner of a Zodiac Oceanaire, posted a picture of the CL888 (shown above.) Finding documented information on the CL888 is all but impossible, which only adds to the speculation. However, Zodiac (and Fossil) takes the Swiss Made label very seriously, and the company proudly states this on its website. To try to piece this puzzle together has taken some detective work.

 

The Oceanaire dive watch (Ref. ZO8000 series) was discontinued by Zodiac, which has introduced a new for 2007 Oceanaire (ref. ZO9000 and ZO9001) which has a rectangular case and different style dial, but does have the automatic movement. There are also Oceanaire dive watches with quartz movements, new for 2007, Ref. ZO8500 and ZO8501.

 

The George J. von Burg Connection

 

In 1961, George J. von Burg founded CLARO Watch S.A. in Bienne, Switzerland for the production of pin lever mechanical movements and various brand name watches. He had experience in marketing his own private label watches, and established production facilities in the United States for watch parts. Von Burg also acquired SEMAG, a manufacturer of ebauches and movement parts. The companies, operating under one roof, grew steadily during the 1960s and 1970s. SEMAG became a sizeable producer of mechanical movements and began manufacturing quartz movements in the 1980s.

 

The bible of the Swiss watch industry is the ISH Indicateur Suisse Annual. My edition from 1998 featured a prominent advertisement by SEMAG for its quartz movements on the cover. There was also a bookmark included that had a SEMAG Manufacture SA advertisement front and back. SEMAG used the ad line ?About Time and Swiss Quality.? The ad also displayed the SEMAG logo, or ebauche mark, which appears on the CL888 movement, but more on this later. Inside this annual, listed in the Blue Pages under Mechanical Lever Movements is Semag SA with address at Salzhausstrasse 5 in Bienne. Under the listing for Movements for Quartz Analog is Claro SA with the same address.

 

Semag Manufacture SA is a member of the Federation of the Swiss Watch Industry FH and is listed under Watch Movement Producers.

 

Recently I purchased a Manufacture George J. von Burg Chronograph from the United States distributor in Washington State. The enclosed booklet gave the Manufacture George J. von Burg address as: Claro Watch SA, Salzhausstrasse 5, Biel-Bienne, Switzerland. All three addresses are identical. Clearly, then the Claro SEMAG CL888 automatic movement is produced in Bienne. If you check out the Manufacture George J von Burg website, you will see a vintage photo, probably taken in the 1960s, of the original CLARO SEMAG building with the signs on top of the building. The Von Burg family has been running this business at the same address for more than half a century. In fact, the second and third generation Von Burgs operate the business.

 

Details of the CL888

 

The CL888 is unique in being an automatic movement with only 18 jewels. Most automatic movements with date have 21 to 25 jewels. All Swiss manufactured ebauches display the hallmark or stamp of the ebauche manufacturer usually visible below the balance wheel. On the CL888 it has clearly been ground away. In its place on one of the movement plates is the marking CL, followed by the SEMAG ebauche stamp, then the caliber number 888. It is possible an ebauche was purchased from another maker with CLARO SEMAG adding the remaining parts to complete the movement, a very common practice many years ago, and typically done today only by high-end watch brands. The rotor is marked with ZODIAC 1882 and EIGHTEEN 18 JEWELS SWISS MADE. Only Swiss Made movements can be so marked. Zodiac and Fossil know this quite well!

 

More detailed information on this movement is difficult to obtain because neither Claro Watch nor SEMAG Manufacture SA have a website to describe the movement.

 

Other brands using the CL888

 

The small watch firm of Montres Edouard Lauzieres in Sisseln, Switzerland also employs the CL888 as the basis of its movement offerings. This company states:

 

?To achieve this goal Montres Edouard Lauzi?res uses only the finest Swiss Made movements from the Swiss manufacturer ETA and our own mechanical movement EL-18 built upon a movement blank from Claro-SEMAG from Bienne Switzerland's watch making capital.?

 

There may be other Swiss watch manufacturers using this movement. Hopefully this sheds some light on this watch movement for its present and future owners.

 

Photo of CL888: Courtesy James Enloe

 

 

Anthony Young

Webmaster:

Valjoux Reference Site: www.valjoux.info/

Second Tier Swiss Watches: www.secondtierswisswatches.com/

 

za: http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=msg&th=950521&start=0&rid=65913

[Bartek19877 20]

Ja bym sobie podarował Adriatice bo: słaba jakość , mineralne szkiełko, mechanizm to Claro 888 więc lipa...

Co do Festiny ten model akurat nie ma nic wspólnego ze Szwajcarią. To poprawny zegarek bez żadnych fajerwerków.

 

Popatrz lepiej na japońce: Seiko, Orienta za 500zł możesz kupić nawet automat z szafirowym szkiełkiem

[deftones 0]

Witaj

 

Mam taki model Adriatica- za taką kasę jeśli podoba Ci się taki kształt koperty to dobry wybór.

Zegarek masywny ale fajnie leży na ręce

 

Pozdrawiam

[Gość Classified]

słaba jakość

Adriatica stoi na wysokim poziomie wykonania w swojej półce cenowej, czesto lepszym niż Festina.

Claro...hmm, można dyskutowac czy warto,

Co do ceny - szukałbym albo taniej, albo czegoś na innym werku, ew. kwarcówkę Adriaticy.

[Grizlob 15]

Hmm, ten mechanizm nie ma złych opinii w tych źródłach.

 

Seiko i orient mnie jakoś nie interesują. :/ Ten Japoński rodowód, nie podobają mi się te zegarki.

 

Czy do 500zł znajdę coś lepszego niż ta Adriatica? Zaznaczam, że wszedzie w internecie kosztuje ona ponad 650zł.. Czy to dobra okazja kupić ją za 500?

 

Przymierzałem ją, faktycznie jest masywna. Ale do koszuli pasuje. Zazwyczaj chodze w koszulach.

 

Adriatica przynajmniej brzmi szwajcarsko.

[Gość Classified]

Słuchaj,

Jak Ciu się podoba to ją kup. Adriatica to dobra, solidna marka bez wodotrysków, ale jakościowo bardzo ok.

 

Hmm, ten mechanizm nie ma złych opinii w tych źródłach.

 

Bo nie jest zły, nie przejmuj się.

[Bartek19877 20]

Adriatica stoi na wysokim poziomie wykonania w swojej półce cenowej

 

Classified - nie zgadzam się z Tobą( nie wszystkie modele są dobrej jakości - owszem jest kilka wyjątków) , ale nie będę też się kłócił

 

PS.

Jak Ci się podoba ta Adriatica i nie przeszkadza Ci że jest tam Claro 888 to bierz

[Grizlob 15]

Co do mechanizmu to piszą, że taki troche szemranie szwajcarski. Że niby 51% kosztów w szwajcarii to szwajcarski, ale zły nie jest.

 

Chodziło mi o to, czy ten zegarek NOWY w cenie 500zł można traktować jako swojego rodzaju okazję.

 

No i czy do 500zł znajdę coś co powala tą adriatice na plecy.

[Gość Classified]

Grizlob, ja wiem co tam jest napisane W koncu dlatego Ci to wkleiłem

 

Dla jednego to okazja, dla drugiego nie.

Za adriaticę z np ETA 2824-2 musisz już zapłacić około 700-800 złociszy a Alledrogo, w sklepie coś około tego.

Model Atlantica o nazwie Seacrest na identycznym mechaniźmie czy coś z Worldmasterów to około 1000 najtaniej. Używki za 600-700. Mówię tu o nowych modelach.

 

Więc za te pieniądze o coś innego niż Claro bedzie trudno - wyjąwszy japończyki.

 

Seiko, Orient, Citizen -to znakomite i respektowane marki, na świetnych mechanizmach i w Twoim zasięgu.

[k601 0]

Mi się on nie podoba w przeciwieństwie do Adriatci 8102 auto z czarną tarczą.(ok 500zl)Co prawda też Claro ale szafir i nie kostka.Fajnie sie prezentuje.Co do jakosci Adriatic to nie jest zle za takie pieniądze.Do Festiny jakos nie mam przekonania a Swiss Made na nich nie zobaczysz.

[Bartek19877 20]

Co do mechanizmu to piszą, że taki troche szemranie szwajcarski. Że niby 51% kosztów w szwajcarii to szwajcarski, ale zły nie jest.

 

Chodziło mi o to, czy ten zegarek NOWY w cenie 500zł można traktować jako swojego rodzaju okazję.

 

No i czy do 500zł znajdę coś co powala tą adriatice na plecy.

 

Adriatica ogólnie jest tania, także okazją tego bym nie nazwał - tylko dobrą ceną

 

Ze szwajcarskim rodowodem oraz z mechanicznym mechanizmem nic lepszego nie znajdziesz za 500 zł

[Grizlob 15]

Mi się on nie podoba w przeciwieństwie do Adriatci 8102 auto z czarną tarczą.(ok 500zl)Co prawda też Claro ale szafir i nie kostka.Fajnie sie prezentuje.Co do jakosci Adriatic to nie jest zle za takie pieniądze.Do Festiny jakos nie mam przekonania a Swiss Made na nich nie zobaczysz.

 

Sprawa gustu. Ja szukałem kostki. Dziękuje wam wszystkim za pomoc.

 

Jutro udaję się po Adriatice.

[GrzecH 6]

 

Adriatica przynajmniej brzmi szwajcarsko.

 

Żałosny żart .....

[marcosik 0]

Proponuje Ci Orienta Mako. Za te pieniadze mozesz kupic na przyklad na ebayu http://cgi.ebay.es/ORIENT-MAKO-5-Deep-Automatic-Diver-Taucheruhr-CEM65001B-/250643038379?cmd=ViewItem&pt=DE_Kleidung_Schmuck_Accessoires_Uhren_Armbanduhren&hash=item3a5b7d40ab#ht_2188wt_1138

albo tutaj http://www.relojes-especiales.com/foros/area-venta-de-mercantes/?tid=6&prid=4398&mod=orient-diver-automatic-mako-dial-negro-wr200m. Strona hiszpanskiego forum podobnego do tego, gdzie sie oferuja sprzedawcy profesjanalni. U tego goscia mozna kupowac bez problemu. Ma swoja strone http://www.relojesmutt3r.com/index.php?cPath=23, sprzedaje tez na ebayu http://myworld.ebay.es/mutt3r&ssPageName=STRK:MEFSX:SELLERID

 

Rowniez polecam tego orienta CER00007B0 z szafirem za 139? (kopia rolexa) http://www.relojes-especiales.com/foros/area-venta-de-mercantes/?tid=6&prid=5901&mod=orient-automatic-negro-sub-zafiro-mod-cer00007b0-nuevo-modelo-!!

 

 

Pozdrawiam

[k601 0]

Jak Ci się podoba to brac!Jak kupisz to oczywiscie fotki:)

[Grizlob 15]

Bardzo nie lubię zegarków z bransoletą. Obecnie mam wiekowego Swatcha z bransoletą. Chcę sobie sprawić coś bardziej eleganckiego z paskiem. Ta Adriatica wydaje mi się dobrym wyborem.

 

Marcosik dzięki za podsunięcie innych propozycji.

[marcosik 0]

branzoletke mozna zawsze wymienic, w lato pasek skorzany na spoconej rece smierdzi jak zdechla mysz, dlatego lepiej zalozyc metalowa branzoletke albo nato, natomiast w zime pasek.